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 Post subject: To the folks that braved those bootleg posters...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 11:53 am
Posts: 52
Location: Atlanta Georgia
We really thought your poster was awesome, and are sorry you guys got busted on Jamcruise1. I hope you do not feel bad, because who among this crowd can say they never swung beer or t-shirts or even a grilled cheese in a lot with official vending somewhere. It's part of what makes all this so fun. Anyway, everyone wanted to know where I got my poster and you guys gave it to us for free the first day at the bar.(for a donation) You should make it into a tshirt. It would look cool with all those colors on a black t-shirt. Just a thought.


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 Post subject: sick jam c poster
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:53 pm 
your poster was way better than the official one.
i am way stoked i got a couple and am way bummed you got your sh#t ganked, way bogus.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:17 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:53 pm
Posts: 57
Location: Columbus, Ohio
If there's any left I'd love to buy one.

Please e-mail me at bonnaroodly@yahoo.com

P.S. I did buy an official one, so by buying this one, I'm not taking any money away from the JamCruise folks...I just think it's a damn cool poster and want it too!

I also bid on the supercool plate prints the last night, but was outbid as I thought they would wait until the set was finished to give everyone a last chance to bid...I couldn't pull myself away from the boogie to check on it... :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:28 am 
I have to say, I feel that its not right to sell bootleg artwork at an event that already has official artwork & merch to offer. You are undercutting the promoters & artists who worked for months to make this gig happen and they deserve to reap any financial benefit there is to gain from their event. If a person was selling non-Jamcruise art/merch (an original expression of their own heart) that would be another story, but if you really want to produce art for an event, you should go through the proper channels and win the bid yourself...contacting the organizers way in advance, giving them your ideas, sending a few rounds of mock ups, etc.

The Drowning Creek folks went through proper channels to bid and create their awesome poster. The Jamcruise folks laid out the necessary funding to print it. They procured the necessary staffing to man the merch booth & sell the poster. All of these things take time, energy, and yes...funds. Its not right for heads to undercut other heads and sell posters out of their room...sorry, but that's how I feel.

Simply put...if you owned a bakery, how would you feel about someone selling cheap cookies from their backpack in front of your store? After all, you are the one paying year round rent, dealing with the health department, hiring & paying staff, paying your bills in order to keep the store open, etc. Not that I know any of you, but I have a feeling you wouldn't be too pleased.

And this is coming from someone (me) who has been going to Dead shows since the 70's - and no, I have never sold anything in the lot, simply because I don't look at the lot as a place to make money. I go to shows to be with my friends and enjoy the music. These bootleg poster artists were absolutely out to make money on their poster, or else they wouldn't have had little cards made up with their room number written in, telling folks how to buy a poster. If you can afford to go on Jamcruise, you can't then claim you are a "starving artist" trying to make some money to eat. And if you are a starving artist, come up with some original ideas...other than an event poster...and hawk those instead.

exiting soap box now...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:43 am 
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on the other hand, in contemporary times, meaning now, not the dead lot in the 70's, fan art is a highly acceptable and sought after media in the music art world. For every pollock I have a masthay, for every drowning creek i have a kerrigan. This does not take away from the profits the producer or the authorized artist make from the sale of the authorized piece.... it just means more money out of my pocket so i can have both :)

if i recall correctly everett, the king of contemporary dead/sci posters spent years doing unauthorized pieces...... even his "greening" poster for jamcruise was a bit outside the realm of "authorized". In the end it seems like it was accepted for its "political content"

if the people who made art for jc1 read this, shoot me a message. I want to see what you created to celebrate this event.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:21 am 
evanstar, my friend, when I made my reference to the 70's, it didn't mean that I went to bed in 1979 and woke up today, trying to apply my 25+ year old sensibilities on the scene of now. I too, along with all of you, have been watching the whole thing evolve.

I will say this, most of the more prominent bands that we listen to, such as the Dead and Phish, have indeed cracked down on parking lot artists who use their name, song titles or their copyrighted images in their bootleg work. The lot artists who have survived, and not run into trouble with our favorite bands, are the ones who do not use these likenesses in their work, but rather swing original expressions of their souls. Some of them have even gone on to produce official merch for these bands. And just because you can afford to buy 2 posters or 2 t-shirts, doesn't mean every kid in the lot can.

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative...just trying to express the flip side of the coin from my humble perspective.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:35 am 
What is the difference between the unauthorized artist on the Jam Cruise and someone like Masthay or Kerrigan? Why do you feel that one is accpetable and not the other?

I don't know much about the poster scene, so I am a little curious what the logic is here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:46 pm 
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Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas
I love the artist and his wife, whom created the so called bootleg poster art. They're talented, kind, and way cool. Big ups to those two.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 7:20 pm
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Location: Georgia
Well, we actually bought one of Ronnie's posters, and he and Jill are good folk.

The "official" vs. "bootleg" issue has been going on for years and years, but here's one take on it:

When there is merch created for an event or a band, some of the profits from the sales goes back to support either the event or the band. We work with bands and events that we believe in and support, and we feel very strongly about making sure that part of the profits go into seeing that the event or band continues to exist.

The problem with fan art is that the money goes to support only the artist even tho he/she has used a band or event to help make the product sales-worthy and nothing goes back to the event or band.

This has been argued umpteen times on other message boards, sometimes just between artists. No clear winning opinions in any case that I have seen.

But.... at large events like Bonnaroo, vendors pay large sums of money to get a booth inside the event to sell their wares. There has always been a parking lot shakedown, and it is widely accepted. The problem is that you then have people who paid for booth space competing with people who didn't for sales. That's hardly a level playing field.

There really is no easy answer.... Jeff and I have tons of posters, both "official" & "bootleg", so we try not to take it too seriously.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:53 pm
Posts: 57
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Again, I did buy the official poster,so I'm not taking money away from the bakery...i mean the Jam Cruise folk.

In the history of the world and our scene,there's always been a 'black market'. Sometimes the products on that market are better than the legit ones. i.e., if the cookies are better out front, I'd rather eat them...the bakery should then wisen up and buy out the 'backpack' vendor, mark up the cookies and sell them through the bakery. (what did they do with the posters anyhow...throw them away? I doubt it, they most likely kept some for themselves, they were great posters) Of course this would only encourage more backpack vendors...but there will be a progressively better tasting cookie as a result...and isn't that what this is all about?...a great tasting cookie...wait, i mean poster...i mean a tasty work of art?

I am simply explaining this side of the coin. I am a tad biased too...we made 'Bonnaroodly-doodly...Singing is like praying twice', Ned Flanders shirts for Bonnaroo, without clearing it with the Simpsons folk. The bonnaroo staff made us stop due to the likeness of the Bonnaroo word...but it was a great shirt that would have never flown if we tried the proper channels. People loved it. (BTW we didn't do it to make money, but rather to contribute our best idea and fun to the scene and as a great way to meet folks walking through the campsites...we gave away more than we sold and didn't even come close to covering our actual cost, which was the plan). They even stopped me when I tried to distribute them over ebay for cost + shipping. ( even after giving tons away, we still ended up with a bunch leftover) I personally think the folks who paid for booths got screwed at the fault of the geography. I'd bet they'd have all done better setting up just outside the 'Centeroo' gates. Knowing such a large shakedown street in the lot is inevitable, why pay to be in the official 'Centeroo'? Again, maybe this isn't proper, but it's the reality we live in. Embrace it! I say charge an extra $5 per ticket to compensate and let averyone/anyone set up and sell their stuff. How's that quote go...,"learn to accept what you cannot change, change what you can, and have the wisdom to know the difference"

Our scene has always had a 'black market' which provides much of what makes our scene what it is. I've always enjoyed contributing my art to this market as well as supporting this market...whether copyright infringements have been harshed on or not (some of the best most creative artwork would have never gotten out if people didn't push the envelope when it comes to this.)

Some of our favorite bands do great cover tunes...the DJ's mix up (sample) tunes of other bands...would you not call either of these acceptable or worthy art? Should they stop because the bands who originally wrote or recorded this music are being undersold? The Sweetwater Brewing Company had 'Interstate 420' signs on the back (the shirts the staff wore on the boat)...should the Government have confiscated those shirts? I mean where does it realistically end?

If you take a step back for a view from a larger perspective, I think you may find that this type of art is everywhere in our scene and our world. I guess it's the nature of the scene to run the risk of getting your controversial contraban confiscated.

I say keep the great artwork coming, legit or not. I thought the posters were terrific and a great contribution the cruise...just wish I got one in time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:59 pm 
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Location: shakedown street
Quote:
I hope you do not feel bad, because who among this crowd can say they never swung beer or t-shirts or even a grilled cheese in a lot with official vending somewhere.


It's one thing to swing beer or grilled cheese in the lot on tour, it's another to sell an item (especially at an organized festival) with official dates, bands, name of event, etc. when there is already an official item being sold. It's not about supporting the corporate vs. the starving artist either. I didn't see the bootleg poster, but it sounds like they were just taking donations, and that is a little different than blantantly selling them... I guess as an artist myself who started out vending in the lots of Dead tour and "working my way up" (for lack of a better phrase ;)) to paying to vend at festivals, I am a little touchy about this kind of thing. It costs $2500 to vend at Bonnaroo ya know, and when people set up huge ass booths for free in the campgrounds, you gotta know that there are kind people inside who saved up for months & months to vend their good the "legit" way. Not all people who organize fests or vend officially are corporate or rich. And it's a similar situation with selling bootleg goods. Kind of like how you wouldn't sell bootleg music... You TRADE it, but selling it is considered wrong. Like I said, getting donations or trading is one thing, selling is another... (Although not everyone feels that way, and some people who hold to copyright laws and confiscate bootlegs goods even if you're handing them out for free). Vending is a huge part of our scene and has been for a while, and as long as we all respect each other, everything will be fine. I am not trying to be all righteous here, but as an artist who makes her living selling her handmade goods within the jamband scene (so that I can continue to do tour and attend festivals for as long as I live!), I think it's important for everyone to be aware of the fact that illegal vending and bootleg goods can sometimes hurt good folks. ;) Most people don't even realize this, and mean no harm at all, which is why it's always a good idea to discuss and inform each other. :0 PEACE.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:49 pm 
Just for the record, they weren't selling them, they were giving them away for free. It sucks because they were very beautiful posters that a lot of people didn't even get to see. I had a stack of the small cards of them that they gave me and gave them away to kids that were at least happy to have those. I did buy the official poster too. But its nice to have both. This is an old argument that both sides have great points, I once had Travelodge logo t-shirts with the words Travelin' Light instead confiscated at a panic show (which THAT hardly seems fair since its a JJ Cale song, not a WSP song) But thats the risk you run. I do wonder what happened to the rest of the posters? Maybe MHT will sell them, it would be a shame to see them get wasted.


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 Post subject: Has everyone forgotten Rick?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:08 am 
"I will say this, most of the more prominent bands that we listen to, such as the Dead and Phish, have indeed cracked down on parking lot artists who use their name, song titles or their copyrighted images in their bootleg work. The lot artists who have survived, and not run into trouble with our favorite bands, are the ones who do not use these likenesses in their work, but rather swing original expressions of their souls. "

Thank you Suzy!

Has everyone forgotten "Rick The Prick?" I saw so many bootleg t's and such get taken from the bus drivin' hippie families trying to make a buck to get to the next show. I vended, but I never used official logos or anything that resembled one in the lot. If you think about this special cruise and what it was, then you would feel as strongly as the staff did about those posters. It would be like you making a GD poster and taking it INTO the show and selling it right in front of the merch table. The whole ship was the venue. They were selling the posters right at the pool bar which is right in front of the merch table. Come on now!

I happened to be in close proximity with a lot of the family involved in jamcruise. I heard the other side of the story. I volunteered my time to be there. The staff was right.

The other thing that many people don't know about the official merch was that the ship skimmed 30% off of the top of all that beautiful stuff they were selling. I have done band merch before and I did a little number running in my head. All of the stuff they had for sale was done in small quantities. That makes it expensive because you know the price for production goes down the more you make. So if you have a hat made for $7 and you sell it for $15 and have to give the ship 30% then you make squat! These folks did it for the love, not the money. Seriously!

Now if you look at those poster folks, they were bringing bootlegged posters on board and keeping ALL of the profit for themselves. No 30% to the ship. It is in all fairness that they got busted. And, from what I heard they did not get them all ganked, and they did not confiscate the ones already sold (which were everywhere in the autograph line). Let's give the Jamcruise higher-ups some credit for handling it in a positive manner.

The bottom line is that they should have waited to sell them untill the actual parking lot......


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:25 am 
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Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 7:52 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Vero Beach,FL
I have to say I bought the "offical" poster for the autograph sessions and it's "cool". The bands had a hard time to sign in a group. A person had a bootleg in front of me and the bands all signed on thier fish, making it easier to organize. My poster looks like shit signed. I still have the wall paper that DGOLD at An honest tune posted befoere DC signed on.


"It's all in tha' mind"
:roll:


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 Post subject: other issues with the bootleg posters
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:11 am 
did you know that...this might help to explain why they took a harsh approach to shut down the "bootleg poster"..

this person submitted artwork to be used after the drowning creek poster deal went down

this person won the contest that jamcruise had...they got a free cabin

they were asked/told NOT to bring them on the boat

they were supposed to give them away free at the culture room shows before and after cruise

they were caught selling them out of their cabin and stupidly in line at the autograph session

they had smaller ard versions directing people where to go to buy them

they had @ 500 posters..thats $5000 at $10 each......not pennies!

imperial majesty imposed a %30 tax on merch...band and festival..

these people are actually lucky that the jc staff got to them first..if the boat crew found them...and the boat line was aware of these posters too..the outcome could have been different or they would have had to pay the cruiseline their share!

these people went and did what they wanted anyway...as any vendor, especially lot vendors know that at any time their wares can be confiscated...

did you know that on jcII someone was selling batik shirts for $50!

they had 50 shirts selling for $50, thats $2500

they had their shirts confiscated...some...and had to pay out @$200 to imperial majesty.

when you add up the numbers and add in the other goods being vended, jewelry and crystals...bracelets...sarongs....etc
it starts to equal real money....someone had to finance this whole project let alone the merch booth

jamcruise did an amazing job...they played fair..and pulled off the best festival ever...

see you next year!

ed


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