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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:17 am 
Wildeyedus, you do realize that the vendors who paid to be inside Bonnaroo are definitely not corporations, right? They are people and artists who have worked their butts off to pay for their booths inside.

I walked through shakedown every day and some of the vendors out there were selling bootlegs of artists' work who did have booths inside - same art designs, printed on everything from t-shirts to messenger bags. It's a joke among artists that you know you have finally made it when you see your art being sold in the lot by a stranger. Many times though, the products in the lot are far inferior to the artists' real product inside because the files for printing are second, third or fourth generation files or are created from an already printed shirt or poster. We caught a guy selling magnets using pictures of our posters - INSIDE in front of the main stage. We didn't make a big deal over it, but many instances of vending without a license involve people who are also selling bootleg merch. The artist (read starving artist) who created the work isn't getting a dime off of his hard work and labor that was put into creating the piece of artwork that the is being sold.

Shakedown at Bonnaroo was not random vendors in the lot. There was a whole 2 streets of stores set up with clothing racks and tents and even a cash register in one. This was after Bonnaroo organizers had promised the paying vendors that they would immediately disperse any organized vending in the lot. It was a far cry from folks selling stuff they had made themselves from the trunk of their car.

Some of my good friends depend on vending as a major part of their livlihood. It made me sad to see that they paid thousands of dollars to be inside supporting the event by paying for booth space only to lose so much business to vendors who didn't pay a dime to set up, but were able to "shakedown" the festival goers for their cash before they could get inside the event and realize that there were vendors inside.

I could be wrong, but it's my perception that most of the kids attending these events are too young to even know what shakedown is... like most of them never saw the Dead or know what the parking lot scene was all about. They actually thought the vending outside was set up and sanctioned by Bonnaroo.

I'd hate to see it get so serious that the officials would crack down on the little guy with a backpack of his own hemp necklaces, but I do think letting people set up entire stores with tents and an extensive range of goods for sale is totally unfair to the folks who pay high dollar to be inside.

My solution? To make the vending more affordable for more people and have a huge vending village inside where the competion is leveled for everyone. I mean, it's not like there wasn't enough room for lots more vendors on the inside!

Anyway, not trying to rock the boat, just making an observation!!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:38 pm 
hey- guest- we're on the same side.

Yes, I do realize that vendors are not corporations. But thats not the point. While there may be no sharks in the water, the little fish still seems huge next to the shrimp. Wasn't that pretty imagery?

I want artists to profit off their own work. All I'm saying is that the way things are organized-- paying vendors are set up to lose out. I think it stinks. But arguing with perception and people's purchasing impulses doesn't change them.

And wanting more policing from the organizers probably won't happen. Its much easier for organizers just to go and ask the larger more established people to pay their fees on the spot (not that they did-- I have no idea- but that would be easier than trying to get huge tents of merchandise down).

And if there were more policing-- the festival wouldn't be the same. Nobody wants to see people getting hassled by the man at a show. For any non-violent reason. Again, I think it stinks that paying vendors get screwed. But I do like the wide-open quasi-anarchy. ;-)

Really- it doesn't matter if festival goers are too young to understand, or too dumb to find the the real artists. Its actually more important for the vendors to be smart enough to find the festival goers-- which is why I suggested a redistribution of organized vending. This is why I feel this way:

a) if centeroo has two entrances, and the vending is established at those two entrances- then you have gauranteed foot traffic of about 50% of festival goers. And those 50% will walk by your goods multiple times. But if you have a little nook of vending-- then you get far fewer people. Granted, the ones that are there are definately looking (not all come to buy)- but the exposure is much smaller. Its just playing a law of averages.

b) it addresses the issue of crampy shopping (which I hate). I don't remember the big multi-tent affair of which you speak. I don't doubt its existence-- I just probably ignored it. Like I did with much of the grouped vending. So my last post may have been a little confusing. I like the little guys. I like the parking lot scene. I like Shakedown -- when its not an agoraphobic nightmare.


I don't like grouping for merchandise. I do like the food to be all next to each other-- so I can sniff and decide at my convenience. ;-)

And I think you're solution is great-- it should be more affordable for all. But I do think that dispersing the vending would help as well.

We really are on the same side. I was just giving some unsolicited advice as to how paying vendors could boost their return.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:03 am 
Oh- and back to the original topic at hand--

I'm all for vending on the cruise. Even if it is bunched together (hey- its on a boat- whole new set of rules!).

Hope it works out for all that want to display goodies for my perusal!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:32 am 
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I have to agree with "Guest" (who I think is Drowning Creek, lol)... I understand what you are saying wildeyedus, but it is wrong to set up a booth in the campground of a festival where there are paid vendors inside, plain and simple. You can check out our website and our "meet the artists" page and read about how small we really are, yet we choose to pay the fee to vend because it's the right thing to do. Vending fees at some festivals are WAY too high, and that is a problem... But I can tell you this, 90% of the inside vendors at Bonnaroo were artists and FAMILY who struggle to make ends meet. The fact that some people are fully aware of this and still set up huge operations in unauthorized spots at fests are only hurting the scene as a whole. Not only does it make it so those of us who depend on festivals sales to buy our groceries lose, it also raises ticket prices because promoters aren't selling THEIR food and merchandise. If a sister wants to set out her tray of hemp necklaces next to her car to help pay for her ticket, fine... We all start out lot vending... We still do it!!! But I heard about companies in the campground at Bonnaroo with 20 x 20 huge ass spots set up, for free, while people like us saved our money for MONTHS to be inside vendors. Luckily there are festivals like Gathering of the Vibes where they DO NOT tolerate rogue vending at all. Hopefully next year Bonnaroo will set it up so that the paid vendors are more accessable (this year the set up made it so we were off the beaten path). I have heard that next year they are going to be very strict about unauthorized vending too. We'll see. I am all about people selling grilled cheese or stickers to get by on tour, but at a festival where there IS family inside who PAID to vend, it's sort of like a slap in the face to hear about all of the people turning their backs and pretending that isn't the case just to make money... One of our friends labeled it "bad vending karma." I think that's a good way to describe it ;). And yes, there were tons of people there selling bootleg shit out in the camprgounds that were direct rip offs of artists we know as well... Just to take money. It's funny how the inside vendors who were really artists might be looked at as corporate, yet the unauthorized vendors who were stealing designs OFF the real artist just to make money might be looked at is "kind".................

_________________
*Mountains of the Moon*
One-of-a-Kind Goods Inspired by the Music
http://www.fullmoonfamily.com
http://www.mountainsofthemoon.com

"Forever Family, Forever Grateful"


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:37 am 
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P.S. And I completely agree with what you are saying, wildeyedus, about the way vending needs to be set us in order for it to succeed at a festival of that size. :) :) :)

_________________
*Mountains of the Moon*
One-of-a-Kind Goods Inspired by the Music
http://www.fullmoonfamily.com
http://www.mountainsofthemoon.com

"Forever Family, Forever Grateful"


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:27 pm 
Hey Moonmammel & Guest (aka Drowning Creek ?-lol) I can't wait to meet you guys on this trip. Confession: I've mostly been admiring your posts from afar since I booked our spots on the boat.

Anyhoo- again, I agree big organized unauthorized vending is wrong. But people will always do it, and plan on doing it if they think they can get away with it. Its really just human nature. There will always be somebody with fewer ethics, less scruples, and more bad karma chasing a buck. And sometimes they may not even see it that way-- they may think they have better business sense-- or may even consider themselves really cool for 'operating above the law'.

And I think its probably hard for organizers to decide where to draw the line as far as a smack down.

I just think festival organizers could be more accommidating or find alternative solutions so that paying vendors get what they paid for and unauthorized vendors don't take home the big profits.

How about this-- a free vending section -- off the beaten path, and a paid vending section that gets more foot traffic. Just a reverse of the way it was last year.

If paid vendors were already established in the prime locations (ie they let you guys in several days before campers) - then you could squeeze out some of the non-paying folks.

Plus-- that would probably create a larger overall vending area so vending fees could be lower for all.

And if there was a "free vending" location advertised and opened a day before campers were allowed in- then that might help to consolidate the larger unauthorized folks. Only now they're authorized- and setting up where you can keep an eye on them . . .

The little guys and sisters selling things out of their car could just be dispersed throughout the campgrounds.

I don't know if that would work-- its just a suggestion.

Like I said before-- I'm really totally on your side, and I think we do agree on most of the issue.

I just think the most favorable outcomes are had by developing a vending solution that works with human nature, good and bad. It should be set up in such a way that paying vendors have the best access, best traffic and best chance at making a sale. And I think that for the festival atmosphere to really be maintained- its nicer if we can do that without having to create more rules, or bring more smack down.

Anyway- I'm gonna stop talking now. It just occured to me that I'm starting to sound like I have to have the last word. :wink:

But I really do look forward to meeting you guys and making friends on the boat-- you know-- if you don't think I'm a big jerk. :D


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 Post subject: forever family forever grateful
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:16 am 
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just clicked on your link to see who you are moonmammamel....
and realized that you are the folk that saved my cold southern butt up in alpine last summer by having hoodies for sale "in the middle of summer"
thank you ! and please come vend on jamcruise, i suspect i will pack wrong for it as well.

can i bitch about your website for a moment though... ok, i will anyway.
i have come across it three or four times in the past year or so.... and I really really like your handmade clothes. I do not own a single piece of patchwork... but i would consider buying yours. (design, color, not sure, it seems more mature, less childish than most of what i see)

HOWEVER, every time i look at the beautiful dresses and skirts you "have" everyone of them says "one of a kind, this has sold and is not available, please check back for our new one of a kind designs"

is my timing just bad? or do you do mostly commissioned work?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:20 pm 
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Whoops! Yup, Guest was me.....

Moonmamamel, we were at Vibes, too, and although we were hassled a bit at the gate because we had a bunch of posters with us to put in the gallery, we completely understood why they told us if we were caught vending in the lot that we would be immediately expelled from the event, and we respected their rules.

Wildeyedus, we'll have a greast time on the boat!! I think it's great that you took the time to explain things from another point of view, too. I do think you must have missed the entrance where the intense shakedown was at Bonnaroo - it was far more crowded and larger than the vending area inside. There were food vendors who had entire kitchens with professional equipment set up, and huge tents of merch vendors, some as large as 10x30'. Not artisan stuff that people had made to sell to help pay for their tickets, but merch that was purchased wholesale. Those stores were as big as the vendor's stores on the inside, and it was an agoraphobic nightmare!!! We avoided it the last 2 days of the event because it was a nightmare trying to get to the gate by that route. It was set up over near the RV section right in front of one of the gates.

I would hate to see the "man" make everyone's lives miserable at a festival by policing too heavily, too. I totally dug the freedom that we felt while being there. That's why I wish that those folks would not be so blatant about it... setting up a shakedown like that is just asking for more policing, especially if the organizers start to feel like they are losing $$ due to it.

I think it would be so cool if the event organizers make the vending more accessable for more vendors. Even maybe allowing a section of smaller stands at a lower cost for some artists who can't pay the fees for the larger booths. Again, it's not like there wasn't enough room!

I've heard some of the vendors who were inside this past summer say that they will go prepared for next year.... by bringing extra staff and tents so that if the event organizers don't disperse the lot vending, they can also set up a tent in the lot, too. Of course they don't really want to do that because it would mean packing more stuff and paying wages to more people.

I don't think there is an "easy" answer, but I think we do agree on many points!! Hopefully, the last 2 years were a learning experience for everyone and the future events will operate with more savvy and insight with solutions that work better for everyone.

Now, can anybody say "Boat Drinks?" :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:49 pm 
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It's no nice to have a rational and KIND conversation about this. There have been other discussion lists I am a part of where people have been really mean & ugly when those of us who are "inside vendors" explain why the unauthorized vending hurts everyone. If we vend inside of Bonnaroo next year, we'll probably do the very thing you mentioned Drowning... Set out tents on the Shakedown too. It was such a stress this year, and when I vend, I want it to be FUN! :)

evenstar wrote:
Quote:
can i bitch about your website for a moment though... ok, i will anyway. i have come across it three or four times in the past year or so.... and I really really like your handmade clothes. I do not own a single piece of patchwork... but i would consider buying yours. (design, color, not sure, it seems more mature, less childish than most of what i see) HOWEVER, every time i look at the beautiful dresses and skirts you "have" everyone of them says "one of a kind, this has sold and is not available, please check back for our new one of a kind designs" is my timing just bad? or do you do mostly commissioned work?:)


LOL, I am going to be lazy and copy & paste from our Frequently Asked Questions page, since that is definitely a FAQ for us:
"Why are your handmade clothing items always sold out?

We choose to keep Mountains of the Moon a small, artisan-based business, and therefore, only have a few select sewing artists who's items we carry. Melissa is the only full-time sewing artist of the bunch. In addition to this, every handmade clothing item we offer is constructed with a great deal of love, care and attention to detail, and each item is created one-at-a-time with NO mass-production involved. Therefore, we can only offer a limited number of items at once, and they sell very quickly. If you'd like to be the first to know when we add new handmade clothing goods, click here. " (<-the "click here" is a link to join our e-mail list.)

And that's the absolute truth. We are just very, very, very small, and we choose to make more intricate pieces that take a lot of time to create. It's pretty much just my husband Jeff and I doing everything for our business: website work, customer service, accounting, shipping & receiving, vending, and creating the artwork. We have ONE part-time employee who also has a full-time job and works whenever she can. (We do have a bunch of friends who help us vend, but they don't work for us any other time). I do have a few other sewing artists who we consign from, but it's pretty much just me creating everything. Every free chance I have to sew, I do, but I certainly don't get as much time as I would like. People ask us why we don't just design items and have them made in Guatamala or even hire a bunch of people to do it here. But we have always said that we want our business to be an art gallery, and we want each designer to be the creater as well. We add new handmade clothing every 2 weeks. We keep an e-mail list, so that those folks who want to get "first dibs" on the new items we add are the first to know (we e-mail them literally seconds after we add new stuff). I also keep some of the "sold" items up rather than removing them because I like to have sort of a gallery so customers know what to expect when waiting for us to add new clothing. I realize that it's frustrating to come to our site and see "sold" on everything, but it's just really important to us to keep our pieces one-of-a-kind works of art versus mass-produced, cheap patchwork. I wish there was a better method, but there's not at this point. We are looking right now for a studio for me though (right now I just have a sewing room in our house) so that I have a place to work with no distractions. So that's my explanation. ;) (And just a little plug... we are adding new stuff in the next couple of days before we hit the road for Phil tour. ;))

Mmmmm, boat drinks. It is starting to get really cold here, and I was looking through our photo album from our trip to Costa Rica, sitting in a hot springs BAR in bikinis sipping fresh Pina Coladas... And I just thought, that would really kick ass to be doing that right now, he he! This cruise is going to be amazing... I have never been on one, and I am so excited that my first ever will be both a CRUISE and a "festival" with incredible music all in one :).[/quote]

_________________
*Mountains of the Moon*
One-of-a-Kind Goods Inspired by the Music
http://www.fullmoonfamily.com
http://www.mountainsofthemoon.com

"Forever Family, Forever Grateful"


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:51 pm 
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hahaha, we is some long-winded people!! Means good conversation on the boat, right?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:57 am 
Quote:
hahaha, we is some long-winded people!! Means good conversation on the boat, right?


Definately!! A couple of Boat Drinks and we'll be unstoppable! :D

Quote:
I do think you must have missed the entrance where the intense shakedown was at Bonnaroo - it was far more crowded and larger than the vending area inside. There were food vendors who had entire kitchens with professional equipment set up, and huge tents of merch vendors, some as large as 10x30'.


Yeah, I must have. So I was a little misinformed when I posted the first time. :oops: After reading the above- I thought-- how in the hell did I miss THAT? And then I remembered-- it was BonnaFrickinRoo! I bet I missed a WHOLE lot more than the big Shakedown. lol. I might have to buy that 2 disc set afterall . . .

I really like the big fest atmosphere-- but I am also definately looking forward to the intimate setting of this cruise. And maybe I'm just old-- but the thought of being able to come back to a bed at the crack of dawn is decadent.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:37 pm 
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We are long-winded, lol... Awesome discussion! ;)

Talk to y'all again in a couple of weeks... We're headed out for Phil tour!

_________________
*Mountains of the Moon*
One-of-a-Kind Goods Inspired by the Music
http://www.fullmoonfamily.com
http://www.mountainsofthemoon.com

"Forever Family, Forever Grateful"


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 Post subject: faq files
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:26 pm 
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lol, apparently i am not the only one to experienceyour online gallery of clothing that you can not buy.

thanks for the faq, i didnt find that on the site, but i am signed up for your email.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:06 am 
:D and now for our next trick . . .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:47 pm 
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wildeyedus wrote:
:D and now for our next trick . . .


you mean there's MORE?

:lol:


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